Seeing structure cheap

Here is what I want to be able to do (for instance)...

From a good dark site, using easy direct vision, see:

Spiral structure in M51;

Spiral arms of M81;

Dust lane of M104;

Spiral structure of M33.

Have seen all these with averted vision and/or lengthy observation using a TV-102. Now I want to see them RIGHT THERE.

What is the least expensive scope which would permit someone to do this?

Could it be done with a Starmaster 11 or 14.5? Need something bigger?

Something less expensive that could do the job?

Any comments?

Steve

I have seen these with direct vision with a Discovery 12.5 under dark skies (maybe even in a 10")... Of course for a few extra bucks the 15" and 17.5" make the view all that much better. The have tube styles very reasonably priced and new split tubes that make them all the more portable without the much added expense of a truss tube.

Also consider the 13.1" or 14" T-scopes. I have talked with Ed a few times and they seem an amazing value. I do plan on getting one of Ed's scopes down the road. Right now I'm completing a primo imaging set-up... so it will be a few months, but really look forward to the views.

Finally, if on a tight budget, Hardin Optical has those 10" dobs for $395 still advertised on their site.

All would be great scopes for the money. My personal favorite leans toward the T-scopes... although I have yet to see one in peron the pics look awesome.

I saw the dust lane of M104 with direct vision easily in a used $400 10" newt (Meade Ds-10), from a not so dark site. Actually, what happened was that I was looking at something else in Virgo and a satellite entered my field, so I tracked it for a while and the Sombrero came into view. I let out a yelp as I recognized it right away.

Spiral structure in M51 - saw it directly with a 8" SCT

Spiral arms of M81 - hmmm....I'll have to think about that one. I can say that I do see it in my 20".

Spiral structure of M33 - I cannot say that I saw this directly until I got my 20". I've seen hints of spiral structure in my 9.25 SCT these days...but it's not right "there".


KMM

When coming to structure in the galaxies, my experience is that going from 8 to 12 inches of aperture helps a lot. However, I find the dark features of some galaxies, e.g. M82 and M108 relatively easy to capture in the 8-inch Portaball. It is also possible to make out the spiral structure of M33 and M51, but this requires great sky transparency as well as some patience. The importance of magnification should also be emphasised. With the 8-inch I see most detail in galaxies with a magnification in the range 100 - 170x.
With an aperture of 12.5 inches, the spiral structure of M51 in obvious at first glance under dark skies. M101 is more difficult, but with some attention the structure can be made out. The spiral arms of M81 are also possible to see with direct vision in the 12.5-inch. In fact, this surprised me a bit, since it is far more difficult to see any structure in M99 and M100. This may, of course, partly be due to the location of my observing site. There is some city light interfering.

The objects showing the greatest amount of structure in the scopes I have used are still the great Orion nebula and the Veil which shows a tremendous amount of detail even in the 8-inch using an O-III filter.