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It's Electric...

Started by Wolfstar, 10/15/2018 12:03AM
Posted 10/15/2018 12:03AM | Edited 10/15/2018 12:06AM Opening Post
After putting close to 200,000 trouble free miles on my Prius, I decided to get a new daily driver. Kept the Prius for long distances trips, of course. It still runs perfect, but I figured It would be nice to work towards a zero carbon footprint. Next step is installing solar to charge my Leaf. For now I am happy getting 5.1 miles/kwh. Nearly 200mpg in monetary terms, lol...

Attached Image:

Wolfstar's attachment for post 159436

It is what it is...
Posted 01/24/2019 03:11AM | Edited 01/24/2019 03:22AM #1
Originally Posted by Tony Aguire
After putting close to 200,000 trouble free miles on my Prius, I decided to get a new daily driver. Kept the Prius for long distances trips, of course. It still runs perfect, but I figured It would be nice to work towards a zero carbon footprint. Next step is installing solar to charge my Leaf. For now I am happy getting 5.1 miles/kwh. Nearly 200mpg in monetary terms, lol...
Facts sure are a funny thing.  In fact I rented a Prius for 2 weeks in 2015 when I was in Florida.  I calculated the gas mileage to be between 60-65 MPG, very impressive, but nowhere near the 200 MPG you are claiming.

The problem with the Prius and other electric cars is for 1, the battery consumption.  Replace those batteries and see how cost effective it is.  Those batteries have a life, which maybe you haven't considered, and if it costs $5,000 to replace the batteries after a certain number of years, that needs to be factored into the cost savings, or cost drain, however one looks at it.

Also, the cost to build that Prius is MUCH higher than almost if not all other ICE vehicles. 

Here's a report on it from WIRED mag:

https://www.wired.com/2008/05/ff-heresies-09usedcars/ 

Here is more:

https://axleaddict.com/cars/Prius

Here is another report that shoots down your claim of 200MPG.  And I'm sure you'll want to say it is full of crap, however it comes from the Liberal Environmental Protection Agency:

http://kscequinox.com/2014/11/toyota-prius-not-as-eco-friendly-as-some-think/

From that article above:

Although the cost of the car was and still is inexpensive, the other two claims, fuel efficiency and eco-friendliness, can’t quite stand up to scrutiny. Let’s start with fuel economy. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, the Prius achieves a combined efficiency of 46 miles to the gallon, averaging 48 in the city and 45 on the highway.

Hmm.. so much for 200MPG eh?  

And one other thing to consider, in electric mode it achieves a whopping 80 HP.  

When combined with the ICE, the HP jumps to 137.  

The article points that out, and once you start laboring that engine, putting a load on it, you can't survive on Electric Power alone.  

That was my experience when I drove it for the 2 weeks back in 2015.  

I thought it was a neat car, but it certainly isn't the Panacea for all the concerns about the HORRIBLE Carbon Footprint, which really isn't horrible at all.  wink

P.S.   More from the equinox article:

The issue is, a car weighing that much ends up using more fuel to stay at highway speeds because of its lack of power. The problem increases when you drive even more quickly. The British television show, Top Gear, conducted an experiment involving a Toyota Prius and a 414 horsepower BMW M3. The Toyota was tasked with driving as quickly as possible around a race track for ten laps, while all the BMW had to do was keep up.


When the ten laps were up, the Prius managed 17.2 mpg while the BMW averaged 19.4 mpg. It’s odd then for any car sold based on efficiency, when that efficiency depends on the driver. To quote Top Gear further, “It’s not what you drive that matters, it’s how you drive it.” The second assumption made about the Prius is that, because it’s a hybrid, it will be environmentally friendly. This simply is not the case. The manufacturing process for the Prius (and all other hybrids) is extensive and complicated.
Posted 03/04/2019 12:48AM | Edited 03/04/2019 12:49AM #2
Originally Posted by Richard Davis

Facts sure are a funny thing.  In fact I rented a Prius for 2 weeks in 2015 when I was in Florida.  I calculated the gas mileage to be between 60-65 MPG, very impressive, but nowhere near the 200 MPG you are claiming.

The problem with the Prius and other electric cars is for 1, the battery consumption.  Replace those batteries and see how cost effective it is.  Those batteries have a life, which maybe you haven't considered, and if it costs $5,000 to replace the batteries after a certain number of years, that needs to be factored into the cost savings, or cost drain, however one looks at it.

Also, the cost to build that Prius is MUCH higher than almost if not all other ICE vehicles. 

Here's a report on it from WIRED mag:

https://www.wired.com/2008/05/ff-heresies-09usedcars/ 

Here is more:

https://axleaddict.com/cars/Prius

Here is another report that shoots down your claim of 200MPG.  And I'm sure you'll want to say it is full of crap, however it comes from the Liberal Environmental Protection Agency:

http://kscequinox.com/2014/11/toyota-prius-not-as-eco-friendly-as-some-think/

From that article above:

Although the cost of the car was and still is inexpensive, the other two claims, fuel efficiency and eco-friendliness, can’t quite stand up to scrutiny. Let’s start with fuel economy. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, the Prius achieves a combined efficiency of 46 miles to the gallon, averaging 48 in the city and 45 on the highway.

Hmm.. so much for 200MPG eh?  

And one other thing to consider, in electric mode it achieves a whopping 80 HP.  

When combined with the ICE, the HP jumps to 137.  

The article points that out, and once you start laboring that engine, putting a load on it, you can't survive on Electric Power alone.  

That was my experience when I drove it for the 2 weeks back in 2015.  

I thought it was a neat car, but it certainly isn't the Panacea for all the concerns about the HORRIBLE Carbon Footprint, which really isn't horrible at all.  wink

P.S.   More from the equinox article:

The issue is, a car weighing that much ends up using more fuel to stay at highway speeds because of its lack of power. The problem increases when you drive even more quickly. The British television show, Top Gear, conducted an experiment involving a Toyota Prius and a 414 horsepower BMW M3. The Toyota was tasked with driving as quickly as possible around a race track for ten laps, while all the BMW had to do was keep up.


When the ten laps were up, the Prius managed 17.2 mpg while the BMW averaged 19.4 mpg. It’s odd then for any car sold based on efficiency, when that efficiency depends on the driver. To quote Top Gear further, “It’s not what you drive that matters, it’s how you drive it.” The second assumption made about the Prius is that, because it’s a hybrid, it will be environmentally friendly. This simply is not the case. The manufacturing process for the Prius (and all other hybrids) is extensive and complicated...
Oh my are you silly. That is my Leaf in the picture, which is fully electric and can get 200mpge. I typically get 48 mpg in my Prius, but it has a couple mods that reduced it's efficiency slightly. 1500 watt stereo, high performance tires, sway bar in the rear and a thicker one in the front, strut tower brace, mid chassis brace...  List goes on,  but it's basically a Japan spec roadcourse build. 

But the Tesla, lol. It makes your eyes hurt with acceleration, lol.

It is what it is...
Posted 03/09/2019 11:55PM #3
Originally Posted by Tony Aguire

Oh my are you silly. That is my Leaf in the picture, which is fully electric and can get 200mpge. I typically get 48 mpg in my Prius, but it has a couple mods that reduced it's efficiency slightly. 1500 watt stereo, high performance tires, sway bar in the rear and a thicker one in the front, strut tower brace, mid chassis brace...  List goes on,  but it's basically a Japan spec roadcourse build. 

But the Tesla, lol. It makes your eyes hurt with acceleration, lol.
I don't think I'm being silly, I'm being realistic, and I can add numbers.  Where I live, electricity costs money.  My bills run at under 8 cents per KWh.  In rural areas here in Colorado the price is significantly higher, depending on who the provider is.  In Eastern Colorado, the provider is well over the 8 cents per KWh.  It is double digits, at least it was back when I had rural electric through Mountain View.  It was more than 11 cents per KWh and is probably around 13-14 Cents Per KWh.  

Here in Colorado through XCEL energy, the costs per KWh is 9.6 cents.  

Now then, in your state, electricity costs are more in line with the AVERAGE for the USA.  In January 2019, the Average cost for electricity in the USA is 13.31 cents per KWh.  

In Arizona, you just had a an increase of 4.031 percent in your electricity costs.  These are very specific numbers and why I am being specific is because you, like most of those on the left, don't deal in reality and seem to inflate things when you want to make a point.  Unfortunately, your inflated numbers are not accurate.

Let me just give you some accurate numbers. 

For one thing, I looked at your initial claim and it appears you inflated the numbers by about 25-30% According to the EPA, the 2019 Leaf Plus can go 226 miles on a 62KWh battery.  

That means If you have a leaf plus, you aren't getting 5.1 Miles/KWh, you're getting more like 3.5 Miles per KWh.  When talking numbers that's a significant difference.  

Now you stated that you had a Leaf.  Is it the Plus model?  If not, it only has a battery pack that offers 40KWh ability.  So then if you're getting the EPA listed consumption of the battery, and accurate numbers, you can only go about 140 miles on a battery life at 3.5 Miles/ KWh.  That means in essence I wouldn't even be able  to drive to Denver and back from Colorado Springs, in a leaf without completely draining the battery.   

How could I take a trip to the mountains?  I'd have to be able to charge it up if I went to Estes Park and I most likely couldn't even make it there.

So then, let's talk costs and your greatly inflated assertions in your OP, that you're getting 200 MPG. 

I think your numbers are incredibly inflated.  

Here's the math.  IF using YOUR Numbers, at 5.1 Miles/ KWh, that means even using YOUR inflated number there, you're spending to go 100 miles, about 19.5 KWh to drive those 100 miles.  So then at the cost of 13.1 Cents per KWh in Arizona, you are spending about $2.55 roughly to go 100 miles.  

But, according to the EPA, you are inflating your numbers.  The Leaf will go only 3.5 Miles/KWh according to their studies.  Unless you are more accurate than the EPA, I'm going to assume their numbers are correct.  Therefore, you're only able to go about 70% of the way that you claim your energy costs will take you.  

3.5 divided by 5.1, is roughly 7/10.  So then, according to the EPA, you can drive your Leaf about 70 Miles (.7 X 100) on that 19.5 KWh amount of electricity.

Well then, since electricity costs 13 cents per KWh in Arizona, you're spending $2.55 cents to drive 70 miles.  

That $2.55 is higher than the cost of a gallon of gas in Arizona.  It is averaging about $2.10 per gallon.  

So then, derate your numbers even more, by a factor of 2.10 / 2.55.  about 82% or so (I'm doing the numbers in my head).

So that means that you are having to purchase the equivalent of 1.2 gallons of gas to go that 70 miles in your leaf. 

Therefore instead of getting the equivalent of 70 miles per GALLON of gasoline, you are getting only 5/6 of that amount since I can buy a Gal of gas in AZ for $2.10.

You then are actually realizing about 58 Miles per gallon of gas in your Leaf, not even close to the 200 Miles per Gallon of gas that you claimed.

You initially claimed "nearly 200 MPG in monetary terms", in your OP.  Well, I just put the numbers together and you're not getting even CLOSE to 200 MPG in monetary terms, you're getting about 58 MPG.

That is less than your Prius, and if you want to show me where my math is wrong, please point it out, because I'm pretty damned sure I have those numbers accurate.

Not to rain on your parade, but you aren't getting even close to 200MPG equivalent with that electric vehicle.