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M20 Trifid Nebula in LRGBHa

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Posts Made By: Brian Tung

July 26, 2006 05:05 AM Forum: Telescope Making

Pressure casting??

Posted By Brian Tung

jess tauber said:
In the book 'Unusual Telescopes' there are descriptions of mirrors made from glass or plastic membranes held in figure by pressure differentials (in the examples negative pressure applied behind the mirrored membrane). The figures are not quite parabolic though (though I don't remember the explanation if one was supplied).

Can one take a membrane and place it in a heated liquid environment, where the liquid on one side of the membrane has a slightly different density than liquid on the other, so that the membrane dimples to a paraboloid, the heat annealing the membrane so that no stresses remain?

If the pressure is uniform, and so is the tension on the membrane, you get a sphere, not a paraboloid. You can work things out so that you get a paraboloid, but it's not trivial.

I don't know if anyone's done anything like this on a large scale. I suspect it's been done on a small scale, but I'm not aware of anything specific.

August 4, 2006 04:00 AM Forum: Eyepieces

To post or not to post, that is the question?

Posted By Brian Tung

Floyd Blue said:
It seems that there is some concern about the quality of personal observations regarding eyepiece evaluation. I am now hesitant to post any findings that I have gleaned from hours of careful study with these eyepieces. One would hope that you are correct in your findings, but after expert testimony about the possibility that my Dob might not be up to the task of properly displaying the potential of eyepieces, I am undecided whether to post my review or not.

This sounds a little nutty. Are people honestly complaining about the quality of personal eyepiece reviews on a free web site? As long as the review says what the context is, I can't see what there is to complain about. One can always ask questions if the context is unclear...

August 8, 2006 05:43 PM Forum: Reflectors

Star Tests-How Good R Yur Optics?

Posted By Brian Tung

Judson Mitchell said:
I am trying to wade through Suiter's book on Star Testing and was wondering if someone would be willing to condense it to a point where a few of the features of mirrors are clarified through star tests. Most interest would be turned edges, over correction, undercorrection, collimation issues, and surface roughness. My reading will ultimately reveal these images, but others as well may benefit, plus it would be beneficial to have that information in a single location. Virtually none of the people I observe with use star tests to any extent if at all.

The followup could be how these features affect EP performance. Anyone care to take a stab at this.

Sure. Although I own and admire Suiter's book, I agree that it can be a bit intimidating. Playing around with Aberrator probably will help (although I've only done a little bit of that myself).

To understand the star test, it pays to spend a little time considering what it is you're looking at. Suppose you were to put a thin sheet of ground glass right into the field stop of the eyepiece. You would capture an image of the star you're testing on, and as you racked the focuser back and forth, that image would get smaller as you approached focus, and then bigger again after you went through it. That's exactly what you're looking at in the star test, but magnified by the eyepiece.

Now forget diffraction for a moment; just think rays of light. When a telescope is optically perfect, light rays from the star--a point source for all intents and purposes--are focused by the objective and converge to a point at the focal plane. The converging and diverging cones of light are exactly symmetrical; the only difference is which way they're facing. That's why, as Suiter says, the intrafocal and extrafocal patterns look exactly the same in a perfect optic.

What's more, the cones are everywhere evenly illuminated; no part of the disc is brighter or dimmer than any other part. You can see this for yourself if you draw out the light rays, looking from the side in a "profile" perspective; the rays don't "bunch up" anywhere.

Next, let's put in an aberration--say, spherical aberration. Remember, we're still just using light rays. When a telescope exhibits spherical aberration, light rays from the periphery focus too close to the objective, and those from the center focus too far from the objective.

When you adjust for best focus in such a telescope, the light rays from the periphery have already converged and are already diverging, whereas those from the center haven't converged yet. The cones are not symmetrical; it's even impossible to define exactly where one ends and the other begins, since there isn't a unique point of focus.

If you draw out the rays of light for such a telescope, with the outside rays converging closest to the objective, and the central ones converging further out, you'll see that the light rays do bunch up. Inside focus--that is, closer to the objective--it's the peripheral rays that are bunching up, so the pattern is bright on the edge, dim at the center. Outside focus, it's the opposite: the central rays are bunching up, so the pattern is bright at the center, dim at the edge.

If a telescope is overcorrected for spherical aberration, the central rays converge too close to the objective, and the peripheral rays converge too far out. So the intrafocal pattern is brighter at the center than at the edge, whereas the extrafocal pattern is the other way around--just the opposite of what you get with (undercorrected) spherical aberration. A mildly turned-down edge will be similar to that, but with the difference very obvious at the edge of the pattern.

If the telescope has a rough surface, the light rays bunch up randomly all over the place, and you end up with what is not so affectionally termed a "dog biscuit," for its uneven texture.

Finally, let's bring diffraction back into the mix. What happens? As far as the star test is concerned, not much--diffraction mostly just "quantizes" the light into rings and a central point. So a perfect optic has evenly illuminated rings on both sides of focus, rather than a completely flat disc. A telescope with spherical aberration has a bright outer ring inside of focus, and a bright center outside of focus, and one that's overcorrected goes the other way around. And so on.

Hope that's of some assistance to you in reading Suiter. To be honest, I don't think that most people star test rigorously after they've used a telescope for some time; the things that change from night to night--collimation, seeing, maybe pinched optics--are pretty easy to see either in focus, or else defocused, maybe, but at lower powers than are necessary to run for the star test. But I did spend a lot of time at the beginning, running the star test often, and understanding what the heck I was seeing.

It's true that the test can be grossly misinterpreted. Generally speaking, if your telescope ever star tests well, it's very likely a good telescope, even if it tests poorly at other times. The test is simply very sensitive to all kinds of aberrations. It is even possible in principle to assign a particular wavefront error amount for spherical aberration, and those observers who do, often do so with great force of authority, but I haven't met anyone that I'd trust to the level of precision they offer.

August 8, 2006 10:05 PM Forum: Telescope Making

question about coatings

Posted By Brian Tung

jess tauber said:
How thick does an optical coating need to be to affect the refractive index of all the light passing through it? Can it be merely molecular thickness, or does it need more to get all of it?

Assuming you're talking about coatings on objectives, eyepieces, and the like, the purpose of them is not to affect the refractive index of the underlying glass (which they can't do, anyway), but to minimize reflection. In the simplest case, those coatings need to be about half a wavelength thick--about 275 nm for the middle of the visible light range. Compare that to the sizes of atoms, which are generally about 0.1 nm across. The molecules used in such coatings--such as magnesium fluoride (MgF2)--are generally on the smallish side.

August 15, 2006 05:30 PM Forum: Deep Sky Observing

Is seeing important for the deep-sky observer?

Posted By Brian Tung

Inge Skauvik said:
I also believe that poor seeing reduces the ability to detect very faint diffuse objects. Reduced resolution means reduced contrast. Thus a very faint object, otherwise possible to see, can disappear when seeing is bad.
What do you think?

It depends. If the object is small, that can certainly happen. If the object is large, however, all that happens is that high-frequency features are swamped, but the object as a whole can be detected almost as well as it could without the atmospheric turbulence. The acutance is compromised, but at low powers (which will be used for mere detection of large objects), this won't matter as much.

August 15, 2006 08:12 PM Forum: Takahashi

Mewlon's airy disk discrepancy

Posted By Brian Tung

Scott Richter said:
I've had both a 180 and now a 210 Mewlon...both tack sharp, but both have had different airy disk patterns on inside and outside of focus. Phil Harrington calls this spherical aberation...but is that what it really is on a Mewlon? Any other explanations...?

If they're really tack sharp, I wouldn't worry too much about it. We had a thread about this in another Astromart forum, I forget which one. The bottom line is that you can't compare SA on one design to SA on another. They can look very different in the star test, even if the quantified level of SA is equal. If they focus easily ("snapping" into focus), you likely don't have a problem.

August 22, 2006 05:27 PM Forum: Landscape Photography

Flowed Lands

Posted By Brian Tung

Kevin Brennan said:
Thats what they call it anyway. My run at a pano of this spot from a recent hike.

That's a nice shot. But from the subject line, I thought this was a play on Floyd Landis. shocked

August 25, 2006 10:58 PM Forum: CCD Imaging and Processing/Solar System

A little theory: Dawes, Nyquist and optimal F rati

Posted By Brian Tung

Gianluca Valentini said:
reading Massey/Dobbins/Douglass' book Video Astronomy, I found an interesting part regarding sampling. Forget for a moment all the considerations based on the seeing conditions and think "pure theory": in a few words, Massey states that a good rule of thumb to get the right image scale avoiding more complex calculations, is to multiply your imaging device's pixels size in microns by 3.5 and you'll get the approximate focal ratio that ensures the correct sampling. The resulting focal ratio ensures that you will be able to record even the finest possible detail, given the Dawes limit of your telescope. Example: my Infinity has 4.65 micron pixels, so the focal ratio that ensures that I am in the conditions to record the finest possible detail given my aperture is 4.65*3.5 and so approx. 16.

This means though that, no matter what scope you are using and its aperture, your ideal Nyquist focal ratio is 16 if you use a camera like mine.

The book probably explains this, but I'll explain it again for the benefit of forum participants.

The idea is that the angular limiting resolution of the telescope is given roughly by l/D, where l is the wavelength of light, and D is the aperture. If the focal length is f, then an angle of l/D spans a linear distance of lf/D. Note that all terms are lengths, so the result is also a length.

In other words, your CCD should be able to sample a pattern that repeats every lf/D. Since that pattern includes (in theory) a light bar and a dark bar, you must sample twice per cycle, so you need to have a pixel every lf/2D. This is just what the Nyquist sampling theorem says. If we denote the critical pixel spacing by s, then we have

s = lf/2D

and then simple algebra gives us

f/D = 2s/l

Now, as a first-order approximation, l in the middle of the visual range is 550 nm, which is the same as 0.55 um (microns). Thus, in order to find the critical focal ratio f/D, you need to multiply the pixel spacing s by 2/0.55, which is about 3.6. So that's where that rule comes from.

Now, if your focal ratio is greater than that, that means that the linear limiting resolution of your telescope is larger, and you have more pixels per cycle of light and dark bars. You are then oversampling. On the other hand, if your focal ratio is lower than that, your linear limiting resolution is smaller, and you have fewer pixels per cycle, and you are then undersampling. Since you are imaging at f/22 when the formula yields f/16, you are (as you noted) oversampling. I don't really see a problem with this, so long as what you're imaging fits in the field of view.

August 25, 2006 11:31 PM Forum: Coronado-Lunt-DayStar Solar Filters

HUGE Prominence "NOW" .......GO LOOK!!

Posted By Brian Tung

Arthur Stratton said:
You have to take a look now. Huge prom rising up above SS-905.
Arthur

Thanks for the heads up. I'm not sure I quite caught the prominence you referred to--I did see a largish filament dying down--but there was plenty of activity on the Sun today. Can't wait for solar maximum to roll around.

September 4, 2006 04:31 PM Forum: Refractors

OTA Diameter

Posted By Brian Tung

Mark Nevitt said:
I was at the Orion website looking at the ED120 ota. The tube rings listed for this scope are 116mm ID. This is a 120mm scope shouldn't the ota be at least 120mm in diameter and ideally larger than the 120mm diameter of the objective.

Yes, but the tube rings don't hold the OTA right at the very end, and the OTA is narrower in the middle.