Posts Made By: Rod Kaufman

Originally Posted by James Lacey

It's refreshing to see that the right-wing media suddenly cares about the pandemic, but let's be honest, if it had not been for the delta variant, they would still be pushing their COVID-minimizing rhetoric, which is largely responsible for the current state of vaccine hesitancy. The right-wing media and its surrogates for Republican politicians pushed their conspiracy theories, peddled their snake oil, and cried about government overreach, and created the current state of misinformation and lack of trust in the vaccines. So, it's impossible to take their sudden shift in attitude seriously or accept any of their criticisms regarding the Biden administration's handling of the pandemic, especially since Biden's response is way more competent and effective than anything the Trump administration accomplished. The truth is, if the GOP and Trump had any political acumen at all, they would lean into the vaccine and go all-in on promoting its use. They should take credit for operation warp-speed, call it the Trump vaccine, and then take credit for effectively ending the pandemic in the United States. The problem is, of course, they peddled so much bad science and misinformation that to reverse course on it is not only nearly impossible, it would expose them for the frauds they truly are to their constituents since they themselves and their families have all gotten the vaccine. If only Trump had leaned into the pandemic and taken it seriously from the beginning, we would likely have seen his re-election.

Originally Posted by Rod Kaufman

Although there's a few in the GOP whom I believe are serious in combating covid, namely the governors of Vermont and Arkansas, the others who claim to be now are realizing the deleterious effects politically and not because of any altruistic sense of civic and moral duty. The red states are taking it on the chin and the GOP can't ignore it. Politically speaking, it's been speculated it could cost them races in close elections. Case in point, in my red neck of the woods, the GOP rep won the last election by a scant 200 votes or so. The covid deaths are now 300+ in the Santa Clarita Valley, with some prominent Republicans among them. It's a similar scenario in other areas of the country as well. Of course, most die hard Trump followers like DeSantis and Abbott will do what Trump did: double down on their mistakes no matter how wrong they are in doing so...

Originally Posted by Rod Kaufman

Case in point reported today in The Hill:
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/566513-texas-republican-leader-dies-of-covid-19-five-days-after-anti

Originally Posted by James Brown

Hi Greg:

The punchline delivered by your hypothetical hero is profoundly flawed. 

We all expect others to keep us safe.  I don't think this can be denied.  On the highway for example, we all expect our fellow drivers to be sober.  We lock them up in jail if they refuse to comply.  We do that to protect innocent third parties, not to protect the drunks.  We all expect lawful gunowners to use their guns in a lawful and safe manner.  You know what we do, if they refuse.  We expect our tradesmen to build to code.  We expect our restaurant cooks to comply with the health regs.

And so on - I think you could argue that a key reason societies evolved is because we all expect others to keep us safe.  I'm happy we have an army, a police force, first responders and so on - because they keep me safe.

Personal liberty is something I cherish, but personal liberty has its limits too - and public safety is at the foundation of many of those limits.  I can think of countless examples where public safety trumps my personal liberty.  Requiring kids to be vaccinated against childhood diseases if they attend public school is one point where public safety trumps personal liberty that I do not have a problem with.

Jim

Originally Posted by Greg Shaffer

Told ya someone would come along and make an illogical argument and here ya are lol

I dont expect you to come running if I am attacked, I will allow that you MIGHT but I certainly wouldnt bet my life on it. I am perfectly content with being responsible for my own safety. Now if being prepared to protect myself affords me the chance to protect someone else then great, I am happy to do so. Laws and wishful thinking mean little in the moment.....so you really arent making a valid point. Laws and police etc are about dealing with the aftermath and have little to do with the moment. 

Originally Posted by James Brown

Greg - If you want to limit the discussion to armed personal defense with handguns, then maybe your point is logical.  I too would not expect a fellow citizen to come to my aid in an armed robbery for instance.  But why is this extremely limited example relevant to broader issues like masks and vaccinations?  You can't have it both ways.  Either limit your example, and limit its relevance, or let's talk more broadly.

I'm talking about a broader perspective of course.  The universal agreement underlying our society requires us all to be broadly be responsible for each others safety - by following the rules!  We expect this and we count on it.  

"Laws and police etc. are about dealing with the aftermath and have little to do with the moment."  This is hogwash.  Laws serve as a deterrent and always have.   For example, I assume you are OK with jailing drunk drivers before they injure a third party??  Or do you really think drunk driving is a choice that an individual should be free to make so long as he is fortunate enough to never to hurt someone?  Other examples like mandatory vaccinations for public school children are a lot more relevant to the masks and vaccination debate than personal defense with sidearms.

Jim 

Originally Posted by Greg Shaffer

I said being attacked Rod.....you think you have time to call 911 if someone is beating you to death? I predicted illogical arguments. You didnt disappoint lol

Originally Posted by Greg Shaffer

It was just a rather extreme example of logic Rod.....

You say you wear a mask to protect me so I should wear one to protect you.

I say I carry a gun to protect you so you should carry one to protect me. 

Same logic....yet you will argue till the cows come home against the latter 

Originally Posted by Greg Shaffer

Tell that to people living on the south side of Chicago.....