Iran

Robert Schmall said:

Luca Grella said:

[QUOTE]Robert Schmall said:

1. The leaders of a sovereign foreign nation are evil.
2. The citizens of that nation are equally guilty.
3. Therefore, the United States, as a Moral Nation, has the right to bomb that country.

What makes you think that the "citizens of that nation are equally guilty?"; haven't you seen the massive protests in baghdad
recently?
It realy hurts to say this, but
what makes you think that the US is still a moral nation?
perhaps you refer to the torture?
or to having invaded and occupied the wrong country after having killed many of its innocent civilians?
or maybe you refer to letting 50,000 of its own people die every year for the lack
of proper health care?

You can go ahead and bomb that country but don't look for an alibi in morality,
that does not work.



Why do you think I put a question mark after "syllogism"? You have completely missed the point: NO COUNTRY HAS THE RIGHT TO DESTROY INNOCENT LIVES.
Two of the three points in my little piece of sarcasm were obviously and intentionally false: numbers 2 and 3. Some of the people who advocate bombing another country think that way and missed the point a long time ago.

Sorry for not getting the sarcasm,
and I am glad that you made your point with capital letters.

Don Barar said:

Spoken like Neville Chamberlain. "Peace in our time."

Don Barar

When Chamberlain spoke those words Hitler already took Austria and Checoslovachia,
a British declaration of war on Germany would have probably got Hitler de-legitimized and
promptly court martialed and executed by its own generals for treason.

A missle attack on Iran would be as stupid as the words of Chamberlain, because it would legitimize
the revolutionary guard and the ayatollah regime. Ahmedinejad is longing and praying for a US strike because that would legitimize
the regime and compact the Iranian poeople against the common enemy.


By the way I am sure you have noticed that , immediatly after the President's speech to the
Arab world , the Hezbollah lost the elections in Lebanon and, a civil and peaceful uprising startedin Iran.
That is because most of the fundamentalist rethoric is based on the fact that US is the evil enemy.

This problem has absolutely non military solution, it is up to the Arab people to solve it.

While I would like to think that Iran would not be stupid enough to do anything I have my doubts. Fact is we should have bombed them a year ago when it was apparent they were killing American soldiers with their IEDs,

Don Barar said:

Best to do it now with conventional weapons before Iran gets a nuclear weapon and destabilizes the entire region. If we wait and do have to use a nuclear weapon on Iran, too many good people in that country will die unnecessarily.

Don Barar

Actually the main source of instability in the middle east is Israel. It sits on stolen, occupied land and over the last 50 yrs it has killed far more innocent civilians than Iran or any Arab country. Its last incursions into Lebanon and Gaza killed how many 1000s? It makes no sense to let Israel sit on a nuclear arsenal while denying the option to the other nations it threatens in the region. Perhaps if Israel had some risk in pushing around its neighbors, it might restrain itself. Plus don't forget that the U.S. has been interfering with Iranian politics the last 60 yrs. No wonder it doesn't bow to every U.S. wish.

That is a pretty strong statement. If we were to follow your line of reasoning we should let Hawaii have its indepedence back and maybe give the US back to the Native Americans.

Les Chambers said:


Actually the main source of instability in the middle east is Israel. It sits on stolen, occupied land and over the last 50 yrs it has killed far more innocent civilians than Iran or any Arab country.

The land was not stolen;many jews were already there and many others escaped from the nazi europe to go to palestine. These jews refugees bought most of the land that makes today Israel. The palestinians one one hand were very happy to see them coming, because this migration made the value of their land soar, but on the other hand the
mufti of palestine became an ally of Hitler and an officer of the SS to promote their extermination.
He partecipated in the holocaust and was sough as a war criminal for war crimes
he committed in Hungaria and Croatia. So part of the Arab world is not totally innocent either.
As far as civilians killed by the IDF you are probably right, except that, if you look at the facts on a case by case basis, you will realize that the IDF not always
had a direct responsability.

Important point here: Iran is NOT an Arab nation... It is Persian. Persians are NOT Arabs...

They are (in majority) a MUSLIM nation, though their brand of Islam (in Iran's case: Shi'a) is NOT same as the majority in Iraq (Sunni), which is part of the much broader/bigger problem.

The problem isn't Arabs, or even Palestinians... it is Islam, and more specifically the manner in which all of these other ethnic and geo-political situations are "leveraged" by fanatical Islamicists (of varying "sects") to drive their larger and very specific agendas (and it is much bigger than only the Wahabists from Saudi...).

You've got multiple factions of militant Islam, each convinced theirs is the ONLY way to heaven, and simultanously each/all believing that violence to convert/subvert "infidel non-believers" is not only acceptable, it is REQUIRED. It's not just against "the Great Satan - the US", or "the evil Jews - Israel"; they are doing it to each other! The entire history of the Muslim-influenced part of the world is completely societally and morally "stuck" in the 10th century, precisely BECAUSE of the Koran.

This is the flaw with Islam (any variant) versus the other major world religions: it is the only one whose "fundamental scripture" not only condones violence in service of it's message, it encourages and even requires it (depending on various sects differing readings of the Koran).

Much of the Koran is indeed good wisdom and guidance for the human spirit. And those who follow THOSE aspects of the Koran can indeed be (and are) wonderful, well-integrated citizens of whatever larger society they find themselves.

But there is, unfortunately, quite a bit of the Koran that has been used verbatim to justify forced violence and conversion against non-believers. The Koran does say it is justified, required AND rewarded to KILL unbelievers. Jesus NEVER said anything like this (in fact 100% the opposite).

Note: this very is different than the MIS-use of the Bible to justify, for example, the Crusades. There is in fact NOTHING in the "red print" in the New Testament that could EVER be read to justify human initiation of violence against other humans; under any circumstance. But, back then "the Catholic Church" (led by "radical extremists") didn't allow the lay-person to READ the Bible (heck, masses were still in Latin until recently!), and hence they could easily "thought control" what the masses were "supposed to do"... hence the misuse of "Christianity" to invoke violence AGAINST Muslims. The laiety were misinformed and hence misled.

The solution there was transparency, open-ness and communcation. Anyone who has ever read the New Testament would NEVER condone initiation of violence against any innocents as a means to "spread the gospel", or further any "agenda". It's anathema.

Perhaps the "answer" with the larger Islamic problem today is a world-wide council of Islamic scholars, to INVALIDATE once and for all - with credibility, those parts of the Koran that specifically recommend, incite, require and reward violence in the name of the religion... I.e. a modern, Islamic version of the Nicene convention...

Bombing them doesn't solve the problem. It only makes it worse... now, if/when they initiate violence against us, that is a different story.

The answer to the larger problem is indeed unclear.