Astonished & Disappointed - Please Comment

I'm 40 and haven't had a telescope since I was 11 and I haven't viewed since then. I have been reaquainting myself with astronomy researching different telescope types with goal of purchasing a scope in the $5k range.

I had a viewing opportunity last night from a very gracious owner of a 24" Starmaster w/ startracker, he had 25+ yrs astronomy experience and one of his observing friends attending had over 30 yrs in the hobby.
These experienced gents commented about the favorable viewing conditons. I wanted to see a scope of this caliber because there are so many people that aspire to own these big aperture scopes. We started the evening looking at Mars, when you total the value of the scope, EP's, and accessories its $15k; I approached the EP (400x) with excitement I looked and there was Mars and the two moons and here is where the disappointment begins, the polar cap was visible with color variations through the planet but it was a flat disc and the two moons were dimly lit nondescript starlike specs. We moved onto Uranus and Neptune and one of the moons Titania? was visible along with other moons; their was oohs from the guy with 30+ yrs commented some of these moons he had never seen and this was a night he would never forget. I began to feel guilty here was a man that had committed 30 yrs to a hobby and was see things for the first time and I hadn't looked in a telescope in almost as many years and I was experiencing quite a let down. I asked if we could look at Andromeda, I remember the $$$$31mm Nagler was used very, very fine optics- the core looked like a snowball that hit a picture window frosted slightly in a circular pattern, the owner said if the skys were truly dark the dust trails would be visible. Back to Mars I asked to see it at high magnification it brought up to just over 1200x, it was bigger, but not in my face. We concluded with the moon that was spectacular!!

When I take a family photo when the picture is developed I don't expect to just see the whites of their eyes I expect: color, background, three dimensionalty etc. When people look at astrophotos they see these elements, get excited about the hobby, run out buy a telescope only to be disappointed I was just amazed with this level of fine equipment and the results. I hope to go out again with the Starmaster setup again in the future in a really dark favorable location, but unless I experience some wows I think my $5k will be going elsewhere.
I purposely omitted the location because I didn't discuss my comments with the people present last night - I don't want to hurt anyone and if any of the individuals present last night reads this I intend no disrespect nor is my intention to disparage the equipment used or amateur astronomy. I would appreciate any positive comments or insights that any one might have as I have not closed the door on pursuing astronomy as a hobby. Thankyou in advance for comments!

Gary,

It sounds to me that you have a great night with an almost full moon out. Nothing wrong with viewing when the Moon is lighting up the sky, and even traveling to a remote location will not make it any darker with the Moon lighting up the sky and washing out even the brightest of the DSO.
Personally I do not even bother looking at anything other than the Moon, or Planets when the Moon is out. Or I image using an HA filter. That would be it. And I still do not expect much from my visual time.
Remember that it takes training of your eyes to reach the full potential of a scope. I can remember when my wife started to view with me and she would not see as much detail on DSO as I would be able to. Now when we have company over to view she explains to them why they are going to see an image that looks like you took baby powder and got some on a black shirt and you tried to wipe it off. They view and say yes that is what I see. Though her and I can see more detail than that and even on Globs we can view to the core, where first time viewers can not, and it is also due to the fact that their eyes are not trained to dialate as much as they could.
As far as color goes you can only get a glimpse of color on certain object but nothing like in the MANY hours it took to take the photos that you see in the books.

There is a reason why ALL star parties are done when there is no Moon in the sky. When one views the Moon your eye will close up since the object is so bright. Then you want it to dialate in order to view another object. Just does not work so well.

I would suggest that you view again when there is no Moon, and then make your conclusions at that point. If you still feel the same way then you have at least givin it a fare shot.

Just my opinion

Mark

Gary,

To add to the 2 previous posts, I was very active and then took some timeaway from the hobby for about 8 years. I just got back into onserving again this summer and find that I have lost some observing skill. I am regaining it fast but am rusty. It really takes a while to really "see" with a telescope. As with any skill it takes practice. Please give yourself some more time and experience before deciding.

Gary, there are other objects that are more visually spectacular, that you probably did not get to see. Also, last night was pretty near full moon so the sky was washed out. If you went back in two weeks and looked at a few open and globular clusters, nebulae, etc, well maybe you'll get a little bit of wow.

In my mind, the attraction of a.a. is psychological -- to look at Jupiter's moons and appreciate Galileo's discovery; the unreal-ness of Saturn's ring; globulars with millions of stars; swarms of galaxies filling the eyepiece (well, several galaxies at least) -- even though each is no more than a fuzzball you know you are looking at billions of suns, and it took most of human history (not to mention evolution of life on earth) to reach that simple understanding of how small we are. If you are not inspired by such thoughts then a.a. is probably not for you. But to be honest, it probably was a mistake to be shown the moons of Mars as your first view through a real telescope... like being airlifted on top of Mt Everest in your sleep -- you missed getting there.

Best of luck, -- William

p.s. my first views were: Orion Nebula through a 6" (T minus 23 years), Hercules globular cluster in a Tucson observatory (-11y), Leonid meteor storm (-3y), Jupiter, Saturn, Beehive open cluster, M81/82, nebulae and clusters around the "teapot", Crab Nebula which was no more than an oily patch (really)... all of them memorable (you bet!).

I'm sure no one feelings would be hurt, sounds like a great observing session. Certainly the uninitiated can be astonished with the view at the eyepiece after seeing incredible photos of planets and deep space objects. Just keep in perspective you are looking at things that are tens of thousands miles to thousands of light years away in realtime. The scope you were looking through is available today to the amateur but was really only a dream to an amateur 50 or less years ago. Hard to explain but for me knowing what I'm seeing is as important as the actual seeing. Surly different strokes for different folks.
Best regards, Mark

Well Gary, you've discovered astronomy's dirty little secret; there's not a lot of 'bang for the buck'. Those of us who like it have become conditioned to its meager rewards. We're overjoyed when we get a clear night; beside ourselves when equipment works the way it should; delirious when the heavens throw us a few crumbs.

But, Gary you must ask what it is you really want. Do you really want breathtaking 3-D close-up views of a fascinating planet? Would you like to experience first hand its moods and quirks? Are you looking for that "sky walk" experience? Would you like to do it in cloudy weather and clear; during the day and at night? Would you like to be a participant and not merely an observer? Is that what you want Gary? Then thank the kind gentlemen for opening your eyes and spend that $5K getting a pilot's license.

Flying is expensive. As sole owner of an IFR aircraft, I should know. But the return is there. It's worth the sacrifice. To me, it's worth almost any sacrifice. I wouldn't swap it for anything.

Once rated, it's easy to share the experience. Kids go bonkers after their first airplane ride. As you found out, sharing the joys of astronomy is easier said than done.

Of course, if you're already a pilot you know this.
Flame suit on.
Bob Young

Amateur astronomy is a hobby in appreciating subtlety.

When I'm not "in tune", I might comment to my wife that I just returned from looking at a bunch of tiny points of light. But when I am in the right frame of mind, I find myself in complete awe that I am observing otherwise "invisible" things that stand as witnesses to the splendors of the universe, its incredible age, and marveling that I am somehow part of it all. Amateur astronomy as an active observer probably requires as much or more effort be spent learning about what you are going to be observing as observing--otherwise it's just gray smudges and tiny points of light.

I have motorsports friends who are completely baffled by this. When people I know ask if I think they might enjoy astronomy, I ask them if they prefer a sailboat or motorboat, downhill skiing or cross-country, reading or watching a movie, etc. You know which people I think would enjoy observing ;^).

Here's a first-light observing report to contrast with yours down this very list. It should make it obvious that astronomy strikes everyone differently:

http://astromart.com/messages.asp?message_id=114185&page=

Last comment before I go--perhaps you shouldn't abandon amateur astronomy, but should seriously consider spending less than $5,000. I find that to be excessive and can definitely get my observing "fix" for a whole lot less. Less stars (oh well), less planetary detail (oh well), but 100% of the stimulating experience. Say, something in the 8" to 10" class that you push around by hand and only costs several hundred, not several thousand.

Cheers~

Hi Gary,

Great posting. A lot of hobbies have a sort of "Kings new Clothes" mystique to them. Astronomy and it's equipment maybe more so. I just turned 40 this year myself, and did my first observations back in grade school with a homemade 50mm (2") refractor scope that used a lense from the condenser of a projector and the mount was from my grandfathers old surveying level, I taped my tube onto it. (Yes it's a true story). I was not really expecting much with such a humble setup. Yet I was amazed at the craters on the moon, also the rings on Saturn, and the red spot on Jupiter was very red back then. I have gotten back into the hobby about 10 years ago, and now have a 16" Dob, (along with a few other scopes : ) and I enjoy finding faint fuzzies, yet there is nothing to compare to a school kids excitement seeing the planets for the first time. So perspective has a lot to do with it.

>> I think my $5k will be going elsewhere.
I purposely omitted the location because I didn't discuss my comments with the people present last night - I don't want to hurt anyone and if any of the individuals present last night reads this I intend no disrespect <<

I could not agree more. Spending $5K on ones first scope is like buying a $5K best set of skis, poles and bindings before you really know how and where to ski. Likely to be some disappointment here. I think your friends who bought the equipment are very satisfied with their scopes, and would be interested in your viewpoints, but I do not think they would be offended.

Astronomy, like skiing is not for everyone. But I really would recommend trying it again in a more favorable time or location, your friend will tell you when.

Sincerely,

David Simons

You've seen the moons of Mars, Uranus, and Neptune, and you're disappointed?

I've been an amateur astronomy for a long time, and I've never seen them. I'd love to have the chance to look through a good, big scope and see what you've seen.

If you don't see the point in seeing what the eyes can see versus astrophotography, then I'd have to say there are a lot of people who feel something like that. Heck, I feel something like that when looking at those targets. However, when viewing Jupiter, Saturn, the moon, open and globular clusters, I find that astrophotography is no substitute for real-time visual observation. Clusters take on a jewel-like appearance that have about the same relationship to photography as fireworks. Jupiter is constantly changing, and lighting conditions on the moon are both crucial and take many years to duplicate precisely. Saturn is spectacular. Galaxies and Nebulae do sometimes present a lot of detail in a 24" scope, but some are more impressive than others visually. Color, however, tends to be elusive except for hints of pink in the Orion nebula.
--
Mike